1. Patients launch a $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Time Change Equals Jet Lag, ME/CFS Style
Jody Smith marvels at how much difference one hour can make to those with ME/CFS, as much of the world has endured The Time Change in recent weeks ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Does anyone ever get "irritable joints"? I have 18 of 30 mutations...

Discussion in 'Genetic Testing and SNPs' started by triffid113, Jul 20, 2013.

  1. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

    Messages:
    702
    Likes:
    221
    Michigan
    3 of the mutations I have limit production / increase usage of BH4 needed for the ornithine cycle for the kidney, and my theory abut these "irritable joints" I sometimes get is that there is something irritating in my blood I am having trouble excreting. Does anyone else ever get this where it is extremely irritating to bend any arm/leg/joint (thereby impending circulation and potentially pooling some irritant at the joint)? I am not like this all the time but I do have spells of this and it makes getting anything done (to type you have to bend the elbows for instance) excruciating. If anyone else gets this maybe we could compare genes/circumstances and come up with some theories? Thanks
  2. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

    Messages:
    702
    Likes:
    221
    Michigan
    These are the broken genes I have:

    COMT V158M +/+
    COMT H62H +/+
    VDR Taq +/-
    VDR Fok +/-
    MAO A R297R +/-
    ACE Del16 +/+
    MTHFR A1298C +/-
    MTRR A66G +/+
    MTRR 11 +/-
    BHMT 1 +/+
    BHMT 8 +/-
    AHCY 1 +/-
    AHCY 2 +/-
    AHCY 19 +/-
    CBS C699T +/+
    CBS A360A +/-
    SHMT C1420T +/-
    NOS D298E +/-


    I seem to get irritable joints when I am sick (turns out I am coming down with something today - losing my voice), when I work hard (like trying to use a heavy leaf sucker/blower in the fall, or trying to trim my sister's overgrown (too tall, too deep) bushes), or when I sweat too much (work of any kind in the heat), or when I am exposed to an androgen blocker like a flea product. (These are som etimes that I can recall anyway).

    A friend is getting me to try tart cherries for it as he drinks tart cherry juice every day for his joints. I think it may work regardless of the cause of the joint pain. I did try it today and it made it better but not totally fixed as I suppose whatever is making me sick is producing more toxins as it goes along (so I will try the cherries multi times per day just now).

    He also says he lowered his blood pressure with lecithin (which is cheaper than K + natto that I use).
  3. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

    Messages:
    5,581
    Likes:
    7,115
    Amersfoort, Netherlands
    I wouldn't consider most of these to be broken. The ones crossed out have no impact on the functioning of their gene, despite what Yasko says and others repeat.

    COMT and MAOA indicate slower breakdown of serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine, but the VDRs indicate slower production of dopamine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine. So those do seem to balance out somewhat.

    MTHFR A1298C isn't much of a problem by itself, especially heterozygous. The issue with that one arises when also heterozygous for MTHFR C677T. So there's no indication that there's a problem with folate metabolism.

    MTRR A66G causes reduced activity of the MTRR gene, but nothing major - maybe a couple percentage points? Might be good to test before supplementing methylB12, however, or take things slowly, since the slow COMT and MAOA might mean you don't need or tolerate extra methyl groups very well.

    BHMT is heterozygous, so probably it's probably having little or no impact, especially since the alternative pathway for converting homocysteine into methionine isn't particularly impaired. But if worried about that, you could get homocysteine levels tested. Heartfixer recommends phosphatidylcholine.

    CBS C699T does result in a mild upregulation of homocysteine being broken down via the cystathionine and other products. Despite the current fad to freak out about this being a ten-fold upregulation, that information is complete false. In reality (well, in humans), it's a mild upregulation - again, maybe a couple percentage points. If you do have mild homocysteine problems via the other pathways, this one would seem to be compensating for it, in an equally mild manner. It's very unlikely to result in significantly elevated ammonia or whatever else people like to freak out about.

    In the relevant research SHMT1 is only a problem when paired with MTHFR C677T, which you don't have. Theoretically it might result in slightly lower folate and folinic acid, but the research would seem to dispute that that is happening in your case.

    NOS3 has an impact when heterozgyous, though again, it's a small one. It can cause problems breaking down ammonia, and with free radicals. Heartfixer suggests supplementing with antioxidants, which seems pretty sensible. You can also get blood levels of ammonia tested if particularly worried about it.

    Not sure what that ACE SNP is doing. Sounds like Yasko dropped it from her panel a while ago.

    Anyhow, none of these seem particularly related to joint problems.
    juniemarie, maryb and Plum like this.
  4. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

    Messages:
    447
    Likes:
    235
    Midwest
    Triffid,

    Tart cherry juice is used to treat gout. Sounds like your friend has it. If you think it is helping you in some way, you may want to look into it more.
  5. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

    Messages:
    702
    Likes:
    221
    Michigan
    OMG! Thank you Valentijn! A voice of common sense!!! I have said some of what you've said before, but not so authoritatively...I freaked out when I got the CBS mutatins back (we all did who have them) only to reason out that it was a crock because I had had my homocysteine measured and it was high! So the CBS does not help me significantly (or do anything significant to me).

    However these genes are extremely significant for methylation because I took a B100 vitamin my entire life (since a baby) and still had HIGH homocysteine. These genes are the reason I needed the active methylation protocol. But it DOES work for me.

    I also was advised to limit methyls and that I would have trouble excreting ammonia. And I observe that indeed I do have trouble excreting ammonia IF I eat a TON of protein. On a normal 80-g of protein diet I have no trouble excreting ammonia (and I tested this twice via blood level ammonia test). So no need for yucca, charcoal, or levulose. Now Atkins and Paleo diets are popular now so people who eat high protein diets (which incidentally are cancer causing) may well indeed have problems eliminating ammonia with similar genes, but IMHO the solution is to fix the diet.

    The ACE gene causes hypertension and so does the NOS gene and a 3rd gene - dunno which one but I think it's CBS - anyway, I have extremely high blood pressure as a result and can only control it with hormone replacement (DHEA+calcium+magnesium). I just had an ultrasound of my arteries and have no plaque and anyway my blood pressure went from normal to stage 3 hypertension in ONE day, and indeed only went high during PMS then back to normal, so clearly is not due to fat in my arteries.

    You glossed over some important ones...The VDR one means that I CANNOT hang on to vitamin D. I have to take 50000 IU D/week (I take a 10,000 pill 5 days a week) or my Vitamin D goes very low and this causes cancer. It causes inability to absorb calcium which will certainly affect joints. In fact my whole life I was insatiable for calcium...I would get up in the middle of the night no matter how tired to take my evening dose if I forgot, and during PMS I had to take a TRIPLE DAILY DOSE and my back would feel like it could not support itself and would surely break. I could not relax w/o excessive calcium and in fact had some trouble relaxing anywa. Now that I have brought my D levels to 70 I could care less regarding calcium, I no longer insatiably crave it. However I have to remember to take it for my blood pressure. Unfortunately now it's like any other supplement and forgettable.

    My genes are confusing regarding neurotransmitters because I always test low in dopamine despite COMT +/+ and always test low in serotonin. I take 1-3g/day tyrosine to assist with dopamine.thyrozine, and one of the adrenal hormones. I had tried 5-HTP in the past with no effect. Not sure if I ever tried tryptophan (it used to not be available). The problem with Yasko's gene panel is that it is not complete. No doubt there are other genes that also effect neurotransmitter levels. For instance, there are other genetic mutations of CBS that apparently DO effect homocysteine levels more significantly than the ones Yasko maps (as far as I can tell).

    I never have any effect from taking methyls...they do not bother me and I consider then anti-cancer and so would never stop taking them. I eat eggs, I take a broccoli supplement (cysteine), and milk thistle (also cysteine). I have, however, noted that despite how good for you it is supposed to be that I cannot tolerate more than 10 minutes in an Epsom salt pool (Mg sulphate) so maybe there is some excess of sulfur/methyls I cannot take but normal dietary ingestion does not have any effect on me.

    MTHFR A1298C - my father was homozygous for that and it killed him. You guys are only looking at what you care about, but BH4 production is required for kidney function. I had my father's BH4 level tested via Metametrix when he was forced to go into dialysis and he had ZERO. He was never himself again after he went for dialysis...it affected his mental processes and caused him to die of a heart attack (which is commonly how those on dialysis die). Even heterozygous it affects BH4 production. I don't know how much but I don't believe you do either. However among the things that raise BH4 is estrogen and I use hormone replacement. I believe it regulates that gene to good effect. I also believe there is a tie between that gee and hereditary diabetes which runs in my family and which everyone on my Dad's side of the family died of. I am not saying it has any effect on methylation or on joints, but it is serious.

    Lack of methylation effects joints. If I do not take a ton of supplements I cannot methylate properly. (homocysteine shows this clearly). For one thing Life Extension has found that SAMe (the universal methyl carrier) can be used effectively against osteoarthritis. There are ties from these genes to arthritis therefore. (And in fact if I fall off on methylation supplements I get severe joint pain and weakness).

    However that does not mean THIS joint pain is from that. I do know that I am taking enough methylation supplements at present to cause mosquito bites to stop itching in 10 minutes (instead of for weeks which was the case prior to me taking Freddd;'s active B protocol). However I observe that my homocysteine is not a normal 6.3, but in fact 9.something. And something else I've noticed...when I take enough supplements to get my homocysteine down to 6.3, I can sleep on my side w/o crushing my veins so that my blood can't circulate. (When I got my homocysteine down to 6.3 for the FIRST TIME since I was 5 years old I found I could sleep on my side and my vins would not collapse!). Not the case right now. But I cannot bear taking 40 pills a day as it nauseates me so I am trying to do my best with less. To get to 9.x I take 2 Thorne Basic B, 50mg P5P, 800mcf mfolate, 1g TMG...but I have to take many support vitamins like zinc, D, mg, anti-oxidants, K, etc. So I am just listing bare bones protocol. To get to 6.3 I took all the above PLUS 1 more g TMG, 1 mB12 sublingual. idk if I need the mB12...I quit taking it when my homocysteine was still 6.5 w/o it...but who knows over time if that moved? It costs money for all these test sand there are s many permutations.

    I REALLY thank you not only for the common sense that many of these genes are not the disaster many people seem to think, but also for the info on BHMT and AHCY genes about which I know nothing (and therefore have ignored with no obvious ill effect).[/quote]
  6. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

    Messages:
    702
    Likes:
    221
    Michigan
    Thanks Laurel, I know it treats gout but more recently they are touting it for arthritis and any kind of joint inflammation. I know people who take it to ward off joint problems. My father and I both had gout. But I have only had one attack lasting mere seconds so I think I'm ok as far as that goes. My uric acid has never been caught on a test out of range. At the time I got gout I thought it very odd because I don't eat a lot of meat and then I read it is also caused by high fructose corn syrup (which I found to be in ketchup which I ate like a fiend during PMS)...so I stopped eating ketchup.

    I bought a package of dried cherries and have been eating a handful a day and it has helped. My joints still hurt a bit but they no longer feel extremely irritable. idk if it was really the cherries. However I observe that I have been retaining a lot of water and I think I have a UTI so I have started taking d-mannose and some other supplement with stuff like uva ursi to help your kidneys expel stuff so it could be the joint "irritability" was due to some blood toxin I had trouble excreting while my kidneys were infected. That's what it felt like anyway.
  7. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

    Messages:
    702
    Likes:
    221
    Michigan
    I think I must have a lot of back reading to do in this topic because apparently there is starting to be a knowledge of how these genes behave in combination and that info was lacking in the past. I am really behind anyway because I find it daunting to investigate so many genes...
  8. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

    Messages:
    290
    Likes:
    78
    Albuquerque
    Valentijn I find your posts about which genes are going to cause problems and which are not quite interesting (especially since its contrary to Yasko/Heartfixer) and really appreciate the way you list things rather than a long ramble. Makes it so much easier for my non scientific mind to digest. Not sure I quite understand all of it so wanted to get some clarification. What is the problem that arises if you are hetero for MTHFR C677T & A 1298C as I am? Do you see anything in my genetic profile that would cause my homocysteine to be high?
    So you dont think that being hetero for CBS A360A should cause much of a problem? What about the whole sulphur thing...trying to get sulphur down and testing with the strips before moving on to treating other SNP's. Thats pretty much where I am stuck right now.
  9. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

    Messages:
    5,581
    Likes:
    7,115
    Amersfoort, Netherlands
    The A1298C can interact with the MTHFR C677T to have about the same effect as being homozygous for MTHFR C677T. It sounds like this might only arise if the "bad" version of each is on a different strand, so it might not happen all the time. Heterozygous C677T by itself means methyfolate production is reduced to 65% of normal. With the heterozygous A1298C added in, this might go down to 30% of normal. Hence there's probably a need to supplement with methylfolate.
    The BHMT-08 might cause a slight rise. But I don't know if the heterozygous version can have an impact on it. The other BHMT's aren't relevant to the functioning of the gene. The "GG" version of MTRR A66G is associated with elevated homocysteine, but your other homozygous MTRR, A664A, isn't shown to have any impact. So you certainly could have elevated homocysteine.

    Because of the MTRR A66G you might benefit from B12, but due to your MAOA the hydroxoB12 form might be safer.
    If you have raised sulfur, it probably isn't from CBS A360A - there's no research showing that it has any impact.
  10. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

    Messages:
    702
    Likes:
    221
    Michigan
    I concur - there is no gene there that should affect your sulfur. But remember these are only 30 genes mapped and they do not even map the whole gene but only to look for specific mutations in them. You can look at CBS in the literature right now and see that science has uncovered more serious CBS mutations that appear to have a much larger affect on methylation. And we were not mapped for this. So it is not a good idea to assume ANYTHING from your gene map. The benefit is only to suggest tests of things that might be wrong with you. It does not take the place of tests!
    Valentijn likes this.
  11. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

    Messages:
    702
    Likes:
    221
    Michigan
    Unfortunately my joints sure do still ache. Cherry helped very little. DMSO helped for about 2 hours. I think what I originally complained about may have been in regards to that I am fighting off some illness, but right now I just think it's osteoarthritis. Life Extension cites studies that SAMe helps tremendously with that so I am trying to get my homocysteine back to 6.3 but B vitamins/TMG etc. do not seem to make m y joints feel better. I've tried boswella, nettle, and spirulina - nada. Life Extension says it can be due to copper shortage, and I tend to run short now past 50, so I am trying that. But copper is something I would expect to take longer to work. I might go out and buy some SAMe and try it directly. ($$) Don't like it but I want to know if it will work.

    Lef says: Ten years earlier, studies had been done in Italy showing the benefits of SAMe. One of the studies involved more than 20,000 patients. This large-scale trial lasted two months. Participants were not allowed to take any pain medication or other arthritis treatment during the study. Doctors found that patients taking SAMe improved steadily from the beginning. At the end of the study, about 80% of the people who took SAMe reported improvement. Seventy percent of the people with the most severe knee pain improved significantly. Side effects were minimal, and only 2.3% of the group stopped taking it because it didn't work. The most severe side effect reported was gastrointestinal upset.

    Clinical Trials

    Several double-blind studies have compared SAMe with NSAIDs. The first compared people who took 1200 mg of SAMe with people who took 1200 mg of ibuprofen for four weeks. Both therapies gave an overall improvement in symptoms of about 50%. Both were well-tolerated, and no one dropped out of the study.
    In an earlier study, SAMe relieved "active movement pain" better than ibuprofen (1200 mg each), with other parameters being about the same. Side effects were better with SAMe. Sixteen ibuprofen patients experienced side effects versus 5 for SAMe. Again, there were no drop-outs due to side effects.
    Another study compared SAMe to indomethacin. (Indomethacin was recently rated the most effective NSAID, while at the same time causing the most side effects). Again, improvement was almost identical, with SAMe causing fewer side effects (11% versus 39%).
    Comparison with naproxen was similar. More than 700 people took part in a 30-day, double-blind, placebo-controlled study. At the end of the trial, SAMe was rated almost as well as the drug by both physicians and patients, although it took SAMe longer to be effective. This is similar to another study where SAMe's effects increased over time.


    Fibromyalgia

    Fibromyalgia is a kind of mystery disease. No one knows what causes it. The basic symptoms are pain in muscles and bones, plus fatigue. Other symptoms include disturbed sleep and depression. Doctors diagnose it by pressing on various parts of the body. Lab tests for fibromyalgia can look perfectly normal unless special muscle testing is done. Fibromyalgia can occur by itself or as part of another disease. The Arthritis Foundation considers it a type of arthritis.
    In 1987, a double-blind, placebo-controlled study was done on 17 people with fibromyalgia not complicated by any other disease. Five participants had suffered from it for 10 years or longer. Researchers found that SAMe reduced pain and caused no major side effects.
    In a study published in the Scandinavian Journal of Rheumatology, 44 fibromyalgia patients took 800 mg of SAMe for 6 weeks. Results showed that SAMe reduced pain at the tender points, as well as fatigue, morning stiffness and resting pain. Being free of pain apparently put people in a better mood: they chose more "happy faces" in psychological tests.

















  12. Bluebell

    Bluebell More % Neanderthal than Adreno but less hairy :-D

    Messages:
    392
    Likes:
    208
    Doesn't look like you have too many really "broken" ones, which is good!

    There is evidence that tart cherry juice helps joints - I remember seeing that Dr. Weil had mentioned a few studies over the years on his site and on his separate blog. You may want to keep giving it a trial, and drink enough of it every day. Apparently it has to be "tart cherry" for best effect. Also, Swanson has an inexpensive tart cherry gel cap that gets good reviews by their customers.

    Glucosamine apparently helps a number of folks with their joint pain. I took it only for a brief period last year and I do think it helped my joints, but I then developed damage of my optic nerves and I stopped all supplements until I could research their effects on the eyes -- I looked into glucosamine and found an article that said glucosamine might increase glaucoma because it might stiffen the trabecular meshwork in the eyes, so I did not resume taking it as a supplement, even though the opthalmologist who diagnosed me with having sudden-onset, early-onset, normal-tension glaucoma (or with optic neuritis, he wasn't sure) insisted that glucosamine could not be harmful to the eyes (and he said that glucosamine helps his painful knees a lot).

    For what it's worth, I just read on Dr. Benjamin Lynch's site a minute ago a post in which he complains that some doctors dismiss being heterozygous for the MTHFR mutations, and he says they still can cause demonstrable and serious health problems, which he's seen with some of his patients.

    One person here - I forget her "handle" (her icon photo appears to be of her in an aircraft cockpit with headphones on) says that being heterozygous can express itself as being nearly completely fine to being nearly as bad as being homozygous, depending on the individual. I don't know if that's a view held by many experts, or what, but I thought I'd put it out there. :)
    Valentijn likes this.
  13. Bluebell

    Bluebell More % Neanderthal than Adreno but less hairy :-D

    Messages:
    392
    Likes:
    208
    You are so right - so little is known about the genome and all the different health problems humans have.

    I remember when I first got my 23andMe results back, and there is that main list of dozens of serious mutations that they flag for people, and I didn't have any of them and I just felt so grateful and relieved, and then I realized that there are thousands more things that aren't even looked at, and/or aren't even known about yet, and I might have a boatload of those!

    Tests have their place, and so does experimentation -- sometimes the only way to know how something might work for oneself is to try it - in a careful, thoughtful, safe way.
  14. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

    Messages:
    5,581
    Likes:
    7,115
    Amersfoort, Netherlands
    Not even "nearly" - it can range from being completely fine to being just as bad as homozygous. It's really not safe to assume that heterozygous is either "bad" or "fine" - either there's research out there with the answer, or it's a big question mark just like millions of other SNPs.
  15. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

    Messages:
    702
    Likes:
    221
    Michigan
    Well so I have not actually bought SAMe yet. I am double-dosing DMSO since that's what I have at hand and it helps a lot with joints, just not as well as it does with muscles. I think it brings in a methyl same as SAMe does (the M in DMSO), so it is directionally correct. Yes, I am still taking dried tart cherries, but only a small handful a day. The guy I know who takes tart cherry as a matter of course takes it as a juice so he possibly gets more. I am still taking nettle but I know it is not enough because nettle works for allergies however it requires for me a much higher dose than recommended...I am not willing to take such a high dose on a daily basis. Right now I'm just trying to get past an episode but the episode has made me think that - well - it's exposing a problem. In other words I think I have a bit of osteoarthritis that normally does not bother me until I try to do things like trim hedges or blow leaves. But it must be there all the time, so I need to develop a reasonable every day regime.

    btw as I have been taking copper for this my hair is changing color - the grey disappears. I am finding hair that has dark roots, then grey, then blond (which is dye). (My dark roots aren't really dark as I was a dishwater blond - so perhaps I should say dishwater roots. I only have a shock / lock of grey anyway, but it is interesting to see that copper does have the effect they say on hair color (for me anyway). I have noticed this before but never realized what I was seeing. I have been sporadic in taking copper in the past and it results in bands of color in my hair!

    Does anyone else have a virus / whatever that makes you sound like Marge Simpson? I have been losing and regaining my voice for a bit of a while now - maybe 10 days. And someone else I know has been having this problem for 2 months. Just wondered how long I have to sound like Marge...because no one would ever take someone who sounds like Marge seriously!
  16. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

    Messages:
    702
    Likes:
    221
    Michigan
    My sister is a nurse and her doctor friend thinks everyone should take glucosamine but I do animal rescue and the vets all caution against glucosamine because it can cause diabetes. Since diabetes runs in my family I plan to avoid it. I have to admit I have no clue how it works and I tend not to take things that I don't understand. Copper I understand as it is required both for making cartilage and for making bone and estrogen helps absorb it so it is a common deficiency as you age, and arthritis is generally a problem of aging. (I know a lot of chronic problems of aging are now occurring in youngsters as they are not protected by hormones either, and the very fact that these problems were rare in the young in ages past speaks to how there must be a dietary way around these problems).

    If one did not want to try DMSO one could try MSM. I believe it will have a similar effect as it also contains methyls and sulfur. I have never tried it because I discovered DMSO first and I always want to reach for what I know works.
  17. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

    Messages:
    702
    Likes:
    221
    Michigan
    I found out my recent joint and neurological problem bout was due to taking keflix(?) - an antibiotic. I find the littlest things throw off my hard earned balance and into a morass of problems. So I took the keflex or whatever since I was retaining water (raised my b.p.) and so thought I had the beginning of a UTI. Turns out the keflix ITSELF causes water retention! (And in me a whole slew of neurological problems which felt like glutamate toxicity). Glad it's over!

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page